Ram air, placebo effect?

[Philip]

So I took my fog lights out a little while ago because one of them is cracked pretty badly and I didn't want to risk having the glass fall out completely and cause a blowout.
I thought this last time I had them out, and I swear I feel it now, it feels like my car pulls a little harder in the mid to high rpm range.
Now common sense tells me that it's simply a placebo and 100% in my head, but I swear I can actually feel and hear a difference.
Does anyone have any input on this?

[Note: I have a Dinan cold-air intake, so my air filter is literally directly behind my driver's side fog light. When the fog light is out you can see the filter from the front of the car if you bend down and look.]

[bimmergirrl]

You shouldve kidnapped me while you were out. haha

[Philip]

.....4 - PMs - Learn how to use them. Talking back and forth with the same person for 2 pages of 1 thread just adds to part 3 above. Use the PM feature. It works great. Or try googletalk. The forum is not an IM tool.......

:shifty:

[DerekNitroRC]

that would be "cold" air :p, just wait until it rains, I hear it adds some extra horse power ;)

[hunterd557]

LOL! The only case I've ever heard of ram air working like that is if it's direct, such as the WS6 Trans Ams or the Mach 1 Mustangs with the shaker hoods.

I suppose it could work, but I would think a hoodscoop with some sort of short tubing would be most efficient.


-Dave

[dinanm3atl]

All in your mind. Ram Air begins to create a small gain once you are going at a high rate of speed. IE 150ish miles per hour. You would have to be going MUCH faster than your car is capable of to make a difference. On top of that you don't have a 'forward facing scoop/intake' anyways so it doesn't matter.

Where is your brake cooling duct Philip? The Dinan CAI is not designed to be that low that you can see it in the fog light hole. It should be resting on, or in my case slightly in, the brake cooling duct. I cut a hole in the top of mine.

Same applied to the WS6 and Shaker Hoods. If you aren't going near their top speed it doesn't matter. While it CAN work at high speeds it has to be a direct path for the intake and it has to be designed to be SEALED to the intake/carbs for it to properly function. Basically it has to overcome to suction that engine is creating itself and 'force' the air in. You can imagine the speeds required for this and the system needs to be sealed.

If I was guessing you are feeling the cooler temperatures of fall rather than a ram air. It is 57 degrees as I post this. That makes a difference when you have been driving in 80-90 degree temps :)

[EnderM3]

its cold dude, that will have more of an effect then removing your fog light

[hunterd557]

All in your mind. Ram Air begins to create a small gain once you are going at a high rate of speed. IE 150ish miles per hour. You would have to be going MUCH faster than your car is capable of to make a difference. On top of that you don't have a 'forward facing scoop/intake' anyways so it doesn't matter.

Where is your brake cooling duct Philip? The Dinan CAI is not designed to be that low that you can see it in the fog light hole. It should be resting on, or in my case slightly in, the brake cooling duct. I cut a hole in the top of mine.

Same applied to the WS6 and Shaker Hoods. If you aren't going near their top speed it doesn't matter. While it CAN work at high speeds it has to be a direct path for the intake and it has to be designed to be SEALED to the intake/carbs for it to properly function. Basically it has to overcome to suction that engine is creating itself and 'force' the air in. You can imagine the speeds required for this and the system needs to be sealed.

If I was guessing you are feeling the cooler temperatures of fall rather than a ram air. It is 57 degrees as I post this. That makes a difference when you have been driving in 80-90 degree temps :)

its cold dude, that will have more of an effect then removing your fog light


Had to quote both of these guys, very smart.

Halston, have you seen the shaker setup on a Mach 1? It's insane! I'm thinking about performing that surgery on my car. I say surgery because you either have to buy a Shaker Hood or you have to cut the faux scoop from your existing hood. The actual shaker unit is relatively cheap though, and it usually nets 25-50hp (depending on if you're 2v or 4v) on a dynomometer, and that's just sitting still, and that's at the wheels! I can only imagine what would happen with the car moving . . .

Then again . . .I believe it was you that explained to me that air turbulence can cause all sorts of weird issues when it comes to intake and exhaust. So it might actually be less functional while moving . . .LOL! It does look awesome though.


Danny:

Good insight, a lot of times we forget how much our cars love to breath in cold air. Especially when you're comparing a 50 degree day to a 98 degree day. It's literally NIGHT and day, LOL! But yeah, good stuff . . .

-Dave

[Philip]

All in your mind. Ram Air begins to create a small gain once you are going at a high rate of speed. IE 150ish miles per hour. You would have to be going MUCH faster than your car is capable of to make a difference. On top of that you don't have a 'forward facing scoop/intake' anyways so it doesn't matter.

Where is your brake cooling duct Philip? The Dinan CAI is not designed to be that low that you can see it in the fog light hole. It should be resting on, or in my case slightly in, the brake cooling duct. I cut a hole in the top of mine.

Same applied to the WS6 and Shaker Hoods. If you aren't going near their top speed it doesn't matter. While it CAN work at high speeds it has to be a direct path for the intake and it has to be designed to be SEALED to the intake/carbs for it to properly function. Basically it has to overcome to suction that engine is creating itself and 'force' the air in. You can imagine the speeds required for this and the system needs to be sealed.

If I was guessing you are feeling the cooler temperatures of fall rather than a ram air. It is 57 degrees as I post this. That makes a difference when you have been driving in 80-90 degree temps :)

My filter is resting on top of my brake duct. You have to bend down pretty low to see it, but it's there.
You're right about ram air having to overcome the engine's vacuum before making a power difference. I worded the OP poorly.
What I am wondering though, is even if I'm not gaining any power from actual "ram-air" because clearly I'm not, is it possible that I gained a few hp or even throttle response simply from making cold air more easily available to the intake via an intake tract with less obstruction, rather than true ram air?
I have no idea, but it's a thought. And yes, my car definitely loves the cool autumn air. I know that's not psychological.

[EnderM3]

Danny:

Good insight, a lot of times we forget how much our cars love to breath in cold air. Especially when you're comparing a 50 degree day to a 98 degree day. It's literally NIGHT and day, LOL! But yeah, good stuff . . .

-Dave

yeah I learned this lesson when me and a friend were walking around the car trying to figure out where the gas smell was comming from, and our non gear head friend in the back seat yelled out the window "WE ARE AT A GAS STATION!"...we felt dumb....

[hunterd557]

EPIC :lol:

I love it!

I would love to get Ram Induction into my car, but fact of the matter is, it wouldn't do me much good at this point. My focus and my attention needs to be suspension, suspension, suspension . . .no big secret, American cars made before 2005 aren't all that competent in the turns. It wasn't until 2005 when Ford started taking advice from BMW and Lotus on how to design the suspension and when Dodge actually started using more than just the box chassis for their cars that domestics were actually able to do something when the lines decided to bend.

Here's something funny . .

You know BMW advised Ford over and over again to remove the solid rear end. No surprise right? Well here's where things get weird . . .Lotus (we all know how well they do down there) came ahead and said, if you MUST keep the solid rear, why not use a linking structure with more give and less binding . . .thus . . .the 3 link rear end became standard on all Mustangs. Sounds out of this world, but someone outside of America looked at the Live Axel and saw potential, LMAO!

Well . . .they probably didn't see "potential", being Lotus, they probably just said "These Americans have no idea what they're doing . . .lets give them some help before they knock all of our good handling cars off the road from their understeer, LOL!"

-Dave

[dinanm3atl]

Majority of Mustang owners want to drag race. Thus the live axle lives on.



What else is different on the Mach1? No way a simple hood scoop adds 25-50 at the wheels on a dyno.

[hunterd557]

Majority of Mustang owners want to drag race. Thus the live axle lives on.



What else is different on the Mach1? No way a simple hood scoop adds 25-50 at the wheels on a dyno.

The Mach 1 is a GT plus the following

Tremac 6 speed transmission
4 valve engine producing 390hp (I don't care who you are, that's a hum dinger
Appearance package
Suspension Package
Interior package
Cobra brakes


-Dave

[EnderM3]

Majority of Mustang owners want to drag race. Thus the live axle lives on.



What else is different on the Mach1? No way a simple hood scoop adds 25-50 at the wheels on a dyno.

on a stock LX or GT, yeah, but on modified cars making around 500hp a 5-10% increase from a ram air is not out of the question.

Just like when K&n says thier cone is good for a 50hp increase they are comparing it to a stock airbox on a 600hp modified car, thus making mr honda boy think "i can get a 50% increase in hp from a cone filter!"

[hunterd557]

LMAO!!! That's why I always go by percentages, not numbers. . . I don't believe a THING I hear in advertisement when they give out claims, thats why when Exhaust, Intake, Cam, Header, manufacturers say "Good for up to XXX hp gain, I'm like . . what is that tested on and what's the percentage"

I'll never say "Yeah, I think the X mod is good for XX hp" . . .what I WILL say is, "yeah, it should yield about a xx-xxx percent gain . . . "

Sorry for all of the imaginary numbers, I didn't want to put any real numbers out there and put a certain M3 driver on blast . . .LOL!

-Dave

[dinanm3atl]

I will say again, there is no 'ram air'. It doesn't exist in the real world. Sure it can be made to work if you are running down the back straight on the Nurburgring at 160mph but I don't think that is what we are talking about here.

If you don't design the setup correctly it won't work anyways. Having a cone filter in your brake duct isn't that 'correct setup'. It has to be sealed to an intake that leads to a carb/TB/etc. It needs to be a pretty direct path as well.

I guess what you saying Danny is if someone built a 600whp mustang and used a stock airbox and then switched to a ram air style you may get 50hp?

[EnderM3]

I guess what you saying Danny is if someone built a 600whp mustang and used a stock airbox and then switched to a ram air style you may get 50hp?

pretty much.

and there is so such a think as a true RAM air intake....its called forced induction:)

[Trout]

pretty much.

and there is so such a think as a true RAM air intake....its called forced induction:)

+1

Is this an actual argument?

[EnderM3]

actually I just did some math and yes a ram air will have an effect.

All you need for an intake to be a RAM air, is for the cars speed to overcome the velocity of air entering the intake.

I just grabbed this number off the web real fast, but 500hp requires about 750 cfm of air.

If your ram air intake is 12"x3" or .25 square feet, that means you need an air velocity of 187.5 ft/min OR 2.13 miles per hour

SOO anything over 2.13 mph and your ram air intake has an effect over a standard one....might not be much but its there

[hunterd557]

See, I never did the math, but dynomometers rarely lie . . .they may be inaccurate sometimes but an increase is an increase . . .what they've shown is a standard V8 Mustang with the optional 4 valve setup, then they showed the same engine in the car with only the Shaker Hood as a modification and there was an increase.

Also, I think it depends, heavily on the type of setup and the engine it's going into . . .


Example . . .type of engine:

For some reason these American V8s make more power if you sneeze on them the right way, the LS1, Mod 4.6, Mod 5.4, LS2, LS3, LS6, LS7, 302, 350, 350HO, 426 Hemi, 440, so on and so forth . . .even doing something as simple as an exhaust upgrade will yeild pretty significant results.

Why?

Because as we all know, unlike BMW, Porsche, Audi, etc . . . Americans have mostly been about cost efficiency . . .they don't care if the exhaust produced is the ideal setup, as long as it's quiet, mildly aggressive and passes emissions. They don't care if the intake is in a prime location or has prime flow, they just care that it takes in a good amount of air for the engine to sustain idle.

Unlike BMW, which goes through every detail making sure that they over engineer every point so that they squeeze out what they can from every engine. That's why most BMW owners will agree that doing things like intake, exhaust and such really don't yield the results that people think they will.

Also, I think a big part of it is the way it is setup, for instance:

This setup . . .

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/3g/parts/aem/aem-v6short.jpg

Or this setup . . .

http://bwoodyperformance.com/images/nitro%20short%20ram.jpg


Is probably not going to yield big results . . .there's a better air flow, but you're just recirculating the engine's hot air back into the car, and if dropped slightly lower may actually provide slightly cooler air. However, a longer travel-path is still a longer path of travel. It's like breathing through a straw with an 1/8th inch diameter, it's restrictive, yes, but if you put a 50' hose to your mouth, it will be just as restrictive . . .


What I'm referring to is the WD6, SRT8 (Challenger/Charger), Mach1 setups . . .

This . . .

http://www.mach1registry.com/PHOTOS/00000.mach1gae.jpg

This . . .

http://images.gmhightechperformance.com/features/0704gm_01_z+2002_pontiac_trans_am+.jpg

And this . . . .

http://autoreview.belproject.com/media/1/20071201-dodge-challenger-srt8-hemi-engine.jpg


Those setups are directly up front or above the hood. They pull air in from a fresh source every time all the time. They also create a tight vacuum so that no air is pulled in or escapes from the sides.

This seems a lot more effective than having a cone filter shoved behind a brake duct . . .

-Dave

[dinanm3atl]

Your seriously saying at 2mph you are getting 'ram air' effect?

What RPM does it need 750cfm of air? Cause at 7,000 it certainly is taking in more air per minute than at 2,000. Feel the exhaust of a car on a dyno, not the heat the amount. An engine is a big air pump. More air in and more air out.

This also assumes that the intake plenum is sealed properly to the scoop and it is not disturbed by body work(IE Aero). You will see F1 and other pure breed track cars with large air scoops that are way up and out of the aero. If it is not clean air it is messed with the affect.

Ram Air can and does work but not on a standard street car.

I still don't see 50rwhp from swapping a hood and shaker intake on a non-moving car. Maybe if the stock airbox on the comparison car is absolutely terrible.

[dinanm3atl]

Some of those look like true ram air style intakes.

That one mustang one has another inlet from the fender?

[hunterd557]

Some of those look like true ram air style intakes.

That one mustang one has another inlet from the fender?

From what I've read, the reasoning for the box and tubing is for the parts of the engine that still require vacuum, PCV, MAF, IAS, etc etc . . .

The shaker kit deletes the air box so you're pulling air directly from the scoop into the hood, but it still has the tubing so that you can still have those items function properly.

-Dave

[EnderM3]

Your seriously saying at 2mph you are getting 'ram air' effect?

What RPM does it need 750cfm of air? Cause at 7,000 it certainly is taking in more air per minute than at 2,000. Feel the exhaust of a car on a dyno, not the heat the amount. An engine is a big air pump. More air in and more air out.

This also assumes that the intake plenum is sealed properly to the scoop and it is not disturbed by body work(IE Aero). You will see F1 and other pure breed track cars with large air scoops that are way up and out of the aero. If it is not clean air it is messed with the affect.

Ram Air can and does work but not on a standard street car.

I still don't see 50rwhp from swapping a hood and shaker intake on a non-moving car. Maybe if the stock airbox on the comparison car is absolutely terrible.

math doesnt lie, but even if I made a mistake by an order of magnitude..20mph is still not that fast for a result.

and the air you feel out the exhaust is alot faster because its comming out of a 7 sq in hole rather then the 36sq in hole used in my example math for the intake face.

also that is an average air flow, engines pulse so the velocity can he higher some times

[hunterd557]

math doesnt lie, but even if I made a mistake by an order of magnitude..20mph is still not that fast for a result.

and the air you feel out the exhaust is alot faster because its comming out of a 7 sq in hole rather then the 36sq in hole used in my example math for the intake face.

also that is an average air flow, engines pulse so the velocity can he higher some times

This is why I'm a driver, not a tech adviser . . .LOL!

My head hurts *sleeps*

*wakes up*

Okay . . .

I agree with Danny on this one, especially when you factor in a proper setup. I'm sorry Honda fans, but simply putting a 4 inch pipe on your throttle body with a cone filter isn't going to bring you up 20hp . . .not happening . . .

However, if you take the same Honda, duct the hood and run a sealed filter fitment behind the duct(s) then you may produce some pretty impressive numbers . . .

-Dave

[dinanm3atl]

Oh alright.

So your saying it is not taking in or exiting more air at higher RPMs? My Intake is 3.5in and my exhaust is 3in. At 7,000rpm more air is coming out than at 2,000rpm. End of the story.

I did some research. Fluid Dynamic engineer calculated tt 100 mph a perfectly designed scoop that is sealed to the plenum and is NOT affected by airflow due to body work/aero(good luck finding perfectly clean air, BMW Sauber F1 spends hundreds of millions doing this) will create .176 psi.

.176 psi! At 100mph mind you. Your right, huge difference. I am going to go cut a hole in my hood.


I think you are missing what I am arguing. Can Ram Air work? Yes. Was Philip getting it on his car? No he wasn't. Are you going to get some sweet Ram Air action on a street car? Doubtful.

[hunterd557]

Wait . . .am I included on this?

I'm not really talking so much about ram air if I am . . . :(

-Dave

[EnderM3]

Oh alright.

So your saying it is not taking in or exiting more air at higher RPMs?

My Intake is 3.5in and my exhaust is 3in. At 7,000rpm more air is coming out than at 2,000rpm. End of the story.

No thats not what im saying at all. What Im saying is that if you run your engine through the power band, at peak power(doesnt matter what rpm your at) your engine needs X CFM of airflow to make Y hp.

So if your max hp is 500, and that takes 750 CFM..................


I did some research. Fluid Dynamic engineer calculated tt 100 mph a perfectly designed scoop that is sealed to the plenum and is NOT affected by airflow due to body work/aero(good luck finding perfectly clean air, BMW Sauber F1 spends hundreds of millions doing this) will create .176 psi.

.176 psi! At 100mph mind you. Your right, huge difference. I am going to go cut a hole in my hood.


and please dont quote stuff you have dont fully understand, psi is a pressure rating. 100mph wind can create .176 psi or 50 psi depending on what its doing, and about a thousand other factors.

If I take a 6'x6' air intake to 100mph and funnel it into a 3" intake its gonna make a crap-ton of air pressure. But again pressure does not matter, air flow does.

If your making said 500hp NA or FI, it still takes 750cfm being sucked in somewhere to make it. What happens later(compression from a charger or just the piston) doesnt matter in this case


I think you are missing what I am arguing. Can Ram Air work? Yes. Was Philip getting it on his car? No he wasn't. Are you going to get some sweet Ram Air action on a street car? Doubtful.


Where did I say it had a super holy crap look at that effect? Math shows there is a gain, whether its .0005hp or 50hp I cant say, just that there is a gain.

Is your general analysis right...yeah, we concluded that along time ago....I just did some math to show there is a resulting gain, is it much no but we already knew that...why do you feel the need to continue to argue a point thats already been made?

David...are you still alive?

[hunterd557]

I'm a little dizzy, but I'm hanging in there . . .

[dinanm3atl]

Wow ok. Yes Ram Air works at 2 mph, I am running to cut a hole in my hood now so I can get that awesome gain.

I should go back to school and get my degree again.I will take power and performance 1 2 3 over again so I can relearn how ram air works. I'll make sure to go tell the guys at Fall-Line Motorsports they are stupid and should start working on using ram air more on their Koni Challenge and Grand Am Cup cars. All those V8 M3's they made need some ram air as well. Definitely good time spent to use it.

Sorry for doubting you.

[hunterd557]

Did I miss something?

[dinanm3atl]

I said Ram Air is worthless on a street car. So he decided to do some math to say at 2mph it 'does make a difference' event though it is .000000001% so he argues that it 'does do something'.

He is not taking into consideration that if there is a disruption of airflow from body work or aero his math doesn't mean ****. Yet he continues to argue.

[Philip]

+1

Is this an actual argument?

:lol: I was like :huh:

[Philip]

This is why I'm a driver, not a tech adviser . . .LOL!

My head hurts *sleeps*

*wakes up*

Okay . . .

I agree with Danny on this one, especially when you factor in a proper setup. I'm sorry Honda fans, but simply putting a 4 inch pipe on your throttle body with a cone filter isn't going to bring you up 20hp . . .not happening . . . (except of course for the Acura RSX Type-S which gains 26 hp from this very setup)

However, if you take the same Honda, duct the hood and run a sealed filter fitment behind the duct(s) then you may produce some pretty impressive numbers . . .

-Dave

Fixed for accuracy.

(seriously)

[Philip]

About 50 posts ago I clarified that my original question was worded badly, and the effect that I'm thinking of isn't truly even Ram air.
Look:

My filter is resting on top of my brake duct. You have to bend down pretty low to see it, but it's there.
You're right about ram air having to overcome the engine's vacuum before making a power difference. I worded the OP poorly.
What I am wondering though, is even if I'm not gaining any power from actual "ram-air" because clearly I'm not, is it possible that I gained a few hp or even throttle response simply from making cold air more easily available to the intake via an intake tract with less obstruction, rather than true ram air?
I have no idea, but it's a thought. And yes, my car definitely loves the cool autumn air. I know that's not psychological.

[hunterd557]

Fixed for accuracy.

(seriously)

I'd have to see that dyno number . . .

[Philip]

I'd have to see that dyno number . . .

I wish I had a link. I distinctly remember that though, because it was so horrendously high.
I remember, it was the AEM V2 intake on a stock RSX-S, and I think Road & Track did the comparison. I'll look for a link.

[dinanm3atl]

It could happen if the OEM intake tract is terrible.

[Philip]

It could happen if the OEM intake tract is terrible.

I dont think the original airbox was terrible, but it was extremely muffled. Iirc, the intake made the K24 get extremely loud in VTEC.
And I can't find that damn dyno chart.

[dinanm3atl]

I dont think the original airbox was terrible, but it was extremely muffled. Iirc, the intake made the K24 get extremely loud in VTEC.
And I can't find that damn dyno chart.

Just FYI you can fudge a dyno. Dyno's do lie. Haven't been calibrated in years and a host of other possible issues.

There are programing and adjustments and all kinds of things.

Just a heads up.

[hunterd557]

And see, that's what I'm worried about, you can take a BONE STOCK engine, with NO modifications . . do a proper fuel map and dyno tune and gain 50hp . . .that's why I don't believe dyno number for products.

That's saying to me . . .an RSX with Intake and header back exhaust will beat my car in a race. Not happening.

If you dyno tune the RSX, and leave my car alone, he might get a good jump because he'll have something that's not even close to his old engine . . .same with my car.

The 4.6 mod motor gains power EASILY, but not 26hp from an intake easily. I know, I've seen bone stock Mustangs from the 90s get a 3 hour dyno tune and gain 75hp with all stock parts. YES! It's that serious!

And no, I'm sorry, Acura doesn't make an engine that can do that without forced induction or serious internal modification.

-Dave

[Philip]

And see, that's what I'm worried about, you can take a BONE STOCK engine, with NO modifications . . do a proper fuel map and dyno tune and gain 50hp . . .that's why I don't believe dyno number for products.

That's saying to me . . .an RSX with Intake and header back exhaust will beat my car in a race. Not happening.

If you dyno tune the RSX, and leave my car alone, he might get a good jump because he'll have something that's not even close to his old engine . . .same with my car.

The 4.6 mod motor gains power EASILY, but not 26hp from an intake easily. I know, I've seen bone stock Mustangs from the 90s get a 3 hour dyno tune and gain 75hp with all stock parts. YES! It's that serious!

And no, I'm sorry, Acura doesn't make an engine that can do that without forced induction or serious internal modification.

-Dave

Dude, you ever drive an RSX-S? I'm no fan of FWD Hondas but those things pull like a f*cking locomotive.

[dinanm3atl]

Prolly similar to an e36 M3.

210hp and 2800lb.

[EnderM3]

Halston man, talking to you is like talking to a 13 year old...just wow

[dinanm3atl]

Halston man, talking to you is like talking to a 13 year old...just wow

That's cool. If you want to resort to personal attacks I am fine with that.


Just wow is you coming up with some math that doesn't take into consideration airflow into the intake. So in a perfect world or in a wind tunnel. Yes ram air works.

There you win.

[hunterd557]

I like drifting . . .that's driving with the rear slip angle greater than the front. That means your car is sideways . . .ram air won't work at all unless I tilt it . . .

*nervous laughter as he tries to change the subject*

AH heheh

-Dave